FFXI DKP Idea

[Grey Jorildyn]

Related Links:
Karasu Rules
Karsu DKP: Event Values

A couple of months back I was looking over my linkshell's DKP and became generally unhappy with the point rewards. It was a DKP that we'd been using for quite a long time and point values weren't exactly pulled out of a hat, but they were not exactly reflective of all the efforts that go into end game events.

My search lead me to the EQDKP forums where I sought two things; other linkshell's DKP (for comparison) and a "stock" DKP any linkshell could simply setup and use. I noticed, and there was great emphasis on this, that WoW has at least one "stock" DKP that's ready to setup and use out of the box for their end game and stuff. Having known a few people that play WoW, I knew the end game scenes were very incomparable. It was at this point that I set out on a quest to help my own linkshell, but also, to give something back to the community, if they cared at all.

What I've done within Karasu, and I wish to share with you now, it our DKP system. I, with the help of Xerlic of Titan, have devised an entirely logic-based DKP system that can be used by every linkshell. It's going to be a copypasta from my forums, but I will change a few things to highlight the high changeability of this DKP system. I would like some feedback on it if possible too. Here I go...

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When I looked at the DKP as a whole, I said to myself that we needed the point spread to be larger. I put all the events on paper along a line and decided where I wanted the new max point value (ie. ceiling) to be. I knew that I'd have to consider what the longest event on our schedule was and what was the shortest (or least-effort) event. Right away I knew what those were; Dynamis cities and ToD Acquisitions, respectively. Using these as a baseline and considering several other factors, I've constructed a logic-based DKP system overhaul that will not only improve our DKP (rebalance) but also create a somewhat universal DKP system that any linkshell can use.

Something to keep in mind here is that this system has been created with the limitations of the DKP code in mind. There are simply certain things that cannot be accounted for so the system uses rigorous logic to compensate for those downfalls. It doesn't do a stellar job, but it's as good as can be expected. With that in mind, here I go...

Part I: Logic System

Considerations
The following considerations were taken into account when devising revised point values for each event and mob. A base points value (floor) was determined and from there, values are determined based on a number of factors which include time involved, difficulty (travel/fight), extra effort required that lead to claim/kill, loot pool rarity, and several others described below.

Base Values

• Universal Base Value
  
  • Set at: 0.25
  • Used in determining an event's point value when other factors cannot be considered
  
  
  Assumed Kill Speed/Event Time
  
  • Majority: 30 minutes
  • Others: variable (See: Time)

Time

• Camped mobs
  
  • 1st window: bonus points (effort) of 0.50.
  • Additional windows: 0.25 each.
  
  
  Stand-alone mobs
  Stand-alone events
  
  • 15 minute increments: +0.25 each
  • Progression: factored independently via rules

Standard Factors

• Efforts
  
  • Long/Difficult travel: +0.25
  • Strategy snags: +0.25
    
    • ex: Chainspell+Stun
  • Alerts/Scouting required: +0.25
  • Ease of Fight: -0.25
    
    • Includes: 6-man'able?
  • Zerg Fight: -0.25
  • Popped NM: -0.25
  
  
  Rewards
  
  • Worthwhile sellable drop(s): +0.25
  • Highly desirable item(s): +0.25
  • Poor drop(s): -0.25
  
  
  Alliance Requirements
  
  • Additional alliances: +0.25 each

Part II: Applications of Logic

Ground Camps
The largest factor with ground camps has always been the time required to camp the mob. Currently our point system does not compensate its members with a point reward reflective of their efforts. To remedy this, the time factor described above will be used to determine future camp rewards. It has been a long-standing tradition of this linkshell to reward members for attending the full length of camp. This precedent will remain but will be executed in a different manner.

The following will be implemented to achieve a greater balance in the point reward for these camps:

RoZ Ground Kings

• Fafnir and friends
  
  • "Full" camp points will be determined in the following manner:
    
    • First window bonus: 0.50 points
    • Additional windows: 0.25 points
    
    
  • "Partial" camp points will be determined as a function of the "full" camp points as follows:
    
    • ("Full" camp points / 2) [round down]
  
  
  Examples
  
  • A member attending a third window spawn Behemoth will receive points as such:
    
    • + 0.50 (first window) + 0.25 (second window) + 0.25 (third window), Total: 1.0 points
  • A member attending the same camp, but showed up after first window will receive:
    
    • Calcuating -- [ 1.0 points (full camp) / 2 ], Total: 0.50 points
  
  
  Accompanying rules
  
  • NEW: Members receiving "partial" camp points will be required to attend at least one window and remain until the mob has spawned as normal.
  • Members will still receive "Claim Points" as normal
  • Members will still receive "Kill" points as normal
  • These rules will apply in exactly the same manner for Tiamat
  • These rules will apply in a slightly different manner for Cerberus and Khimaira
    
    • Each window will earn 0.50 as they are one hour apart, not 30 minutes.

Stand-alone Mobs/Events
Mobs that are not generally camped or that cannot be camped and are recognized on the DKP currently as "Kill" raids only required a different set of rules. For these mobs, there rules for Time compensation still count but the other Standard Factors apply to them as well. In essence, the logic above has been applied to each of these mobs and can also be applied to future mobs/event being added as Square-Enix introduces them to us. Let's take a look at how we can calculate things...

Calculating Mob Worth
In order to determine what a mob's point value we need to know everything about the mob. We need to know where it spawns, the conditions we need to find that out, its loot pool, the desirable/usefulness of those drops, its overall difficulty, and whether or not we're going to zerg it down or if it'll be a lengthy fight. Here's one example that references the above logic chart:

• Tiamat
  
  • Time Factor: +1.00 (approx. 60 minute kill time)
  • Long/Difficult travel: +0.25 (it's way out there in Attohwa Chasm)
  • Strategy Snags: +0.25 (Stunning Firaga, tanks; resistance gear, WHMs; barspell gear)
  • Alert/Scouting required: +0.25 (Yes, or else we'll never know it's up!)
  • Worthwhile sellable item(s): +0.25 (cranks the auction up quite a bit)
  • Highly desirable item(s): +0.25 (Herald's Gaiters)
  
  
  Total: 2.25 points

Therefor the new Tiamat Kill (full) value will be 2.25 points as a result of taking all these factors into consideration. Here is another two to satisfy your palette:

• Khimaira
  
  • Time Factor: +0.50 (approx. 30 minute kill time)
  • Long/Difficult travel: +0.25 (braving the gauntlet of death!)
  • Strategy snags: +0.25 (Stunning Fulmination)
  • Alert/Scouting required: +0.25 (this one's obvious)
  • Poor drop(s): -0.25 (drops materials only most of the time)
  
  
  Total: 1.0 points

• Cerberus
  
  • Time factor: +0.50 (approx. 30 minute kill time)
  • Strategy snags: +0.25 (Stunning Gates of Hades)
  • Alerts/Scouting required: +0.25 (absolutely)
  • Worthwhile sellable drop(s): +0.25 (Cerberus Hides/Algol)
  
  
  Total: 1.25 points

I think you get the idea now, right? This is how we will be determining mob point values in the future.

Calculating Event Worth
Coupled with the idea of Time in undertaking event is Progression of the linkshell. Events are all progressive, some with direct progression via items (Sky/Sea/Limbus), and others as a function of difficulty (Einherjar). Generally in those latter types of events, the entry is limited on some factor (in Einherjar's case; feathers). These factors have been taken into account when calculating the point rewards for events.

• Limbus
  
  • Time factor: 0.75 (approx. 45 minute zone times, on average)
  • Progression factor (rule-dependant):
    
    • +0.25 per additional area on a given night
    • +0.50 per additional area [instead] should a chip-set be completed
  
  
  Total: min, 0.75; max, variable

This is how Limbus runs now. I am only pointing out how well the logic system allows us to actually legitimize these types of Progression effects. Here is an event based purely on time with the occasional effort bonus:

• Dynamis
  
  • Time factor (variable):
    
    • City (full): 3.0 (three hours)
    • Northlands (full): 2.5 (three hours, less intense than a city. can earn up to 2.75 with bonuses [below])
      
      • Additional Points: +0.25 Dynamis Lord Kill, +0.25 Attestation Attempt
    • CoP (full): 2.0 (two hours)
    • "Partial" Dynamis: simply half the full value.
  
  
  Total: min, 1.0 ("partial" CoP); max, 3.0 ("full" City)

Using our Time factor here we can see how easy it is to just place Dynamis in the utmost highest place by point value as it is the longest and most intensive event we have. It is not difficult however, nor does it require extra efforts, or anything like that. We also do not factor in things like drops because those are too variable to compensate for.

Everyone should have the right idea here by now.
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Now without knowing our linkshell rules (linked at the top of this post), some of this is difficult to understand. The focus of this DKP system is to reward members for every type of effort imaginable. As I stated above though, the DKP has limitations. One major limitation for example is not being able to award people "Camp Points" for the exact windows they camped for if they showed up after First Window. I aware of these limitations and it's one of the reason I feel that FFXI has long-needed its very own DKP-esque system to begin with.

What I think everyone can see if that as rigorous as the logic above is, many of the variables can be used to adjust points values not only over time, but also per-linkshell. For example, we consider Fafnir's Ridill a "worthwhile drop", thus is receives +0.25 point factor, but another linkshell that is full-up on Ridills might not use that factor. Another example is that linkshells that kill things faster or slower can adjust the points rewards for their Time factor accordingly. All in all, the system works so well for us, I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier.

Another thing to understand is that my linkshell uses 0.25 points as a baseline increment. Anyone could simply port the system above but use 1.00 points as a baseline instead (essentially multiplying all above values by 4, but the number would be quite large!). So far, it's working great for us and I feel it would be a stellar system to implement for a linkshell just starting out that does not already have an established point system. I also understand that there are that do not like point systems, as has been discussed about 8 billion times on BG, so I'd rather those people not knock a system they do not understand the invaluable-ness of without even experiencing a real point system. But whoa is me, I can't stop anyone from posting in this thread

Anyhow, feedback is appreciated.

[nitsuj]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand why we use DKP in FFXI?

I just call them "Points" in my system... or am I missing something?

[Grey Jorildyn]

Would it make you feel better if I had titled the thread "FFXI Points System idea"? What does what it's called have to do with anything lol

DKP is simply the software being used to accommodate most point-based linkshells so it's become a familiar term rather than a brand name.

[Mojo]

Seems pretty fair and all but have fun keeping track of that information. I can only imagine the barrage of complaints regarding minute inaccuracies. Also, how do you plan on distributing items?

[Kaylia]

Fuck this, I would rather deal with drama than having to manage such system.

There is nothing wrong with it, and I think it's relatively fair, but loot shouldn't be the factor that hold your linkshell together. You can usually prevent major abuse with a few simple guideline rule

[frodnonnag]

keep it simple, stupid.

i'm not going to read your college thesis in order to figure out priority on getting an item.

oh, and if its a point system, why the fuck are you constantly dealing with decimals?

[Grey Jorildyn]

Loot is distributed using a silent bidding system.

It's not hard to manage, it's actually quite simple, just wordy.

[frodnonnag]

Loot is distributed using a silent bidding system.

It's not hard to manage, it's actually quite simple, just wordy.

then simplify it.

[Viserdes]

The system looks like the best ive seen in awhile. Although of course you don't plan to undertake this all by yourself im assuming, so i would find some honest people to help take points (otherwise there could be some abuse). Also just one more thing, is the silent bidding thing, if it was me i'd have it so that once you get a specific item that they cant bid on it again until there is an instance when no one else who hasnt already gotten it can. For instance, a person who got gaiters previously cant lot against someone who hasnt, even if they have more points (of course there are exceptions, like if someone just recently joined and would get priority). Of course, the leader should have consent to limit certain bids (but only to a certain extent, otherwise people may think your bending them in your favor).

[Vyerz]

Yay now I can sleep soundly now that I know I'm being omfg-fair to my members~
Oh, wait. I'm not adopting this? ... I'm not gonna spend countless hours organizing the points?

..k

Although, I for those who -do- use a point based system I think this information is very useful. Good job with this.

[Grey Jorildyn]

The system looks like the best ive seen in awhile. Although of course you don't plan to undertake this all by yourself im assuming, so i would find some honest people to help take points (otherwise there could be some abuse). Also just one more thing, is the silent bidding thing, if it was me i'd have it so that once you get a specific item that they cant bid on it again until there is an instance when no one else who hasnt already gotten it can. For instance, a person who got gaiters previously cant lot against someone who hasnt, even if they have more points (of course there are exceptions, like if someone just recently joined and would get priority). Of course, the leader should have consent to limit certain bids (but only to a certain extent, otherwise people may think your bending them in your favor).

Thanks. Yes, we have many rules that limit what and how members can bid on items to be fair with the distribution. A good point system is only as good as the synergy is between its DKP and the Rules provided by the leadership.

Yay now I can sleep soundly now that I know I'm being omfg-fair to my members~
Oh, wait. I'm not adopting this? ... I'm not gonna spend countless hours organizing the points?

..k

Although, I for those who -do- use a point based system I think this information is very useful. Good job with this.

I took me a few days to devise the system, but calculating the point values only took about two hours. My linkshell already "upgraded" to this system.

[Aux]

I actually look up on DKP systems as one of the fairer measurements of distributing gear throughout the game.

Your DKP system seems fairly balanced, it covered most aspects of each event.

However my concerns are brought to the Dynamis section - this is where I've always felt no matter how fair you try to make Dynamis, there's always going to be some kind of uproar from the attendees, especially when neck to neck on a particular piece they've been waiting for months. They'll end up calling you out for discrepancies, playing favoritism, and everything else they can think of in the excuse book.

How would you go about to dealing with issues such as:
- AFK / Ninja AFK: One of the other random issues during Dynamis, some people dont' care, however to others who put in their full 3 hours vs someone who only put in 1 hour of active playing, for the same amount of points, brings questions to the table.

- Tardiness / Early dismissal - Face this, there's always going to be people logging on late because of work or whatever other issues, as well as the same reason for EST to bail out at the 12AM mark because they've got work the next day. How do we go about to dealing with this?

- Skill factor - Granted, it's hard to use numbers to evaluate how well someone is playing during the event. Only by running a parser, you would be able to distinguish this fact. This doesn't account for the notion that you have to be in range for the parser to work in the first place..


Pulling/Distributing AF or item calls/Logging attendance is a VERY tedious task in conjunction with parsing. Add in any dualboxed accounts, mules, etc and you've got yourself your secondary unpaid job going on.

In stark contrast, I've always thought about why SE could not create some kind of skill/event summary information available to everyone, similar to how you see Frag:Death ratios in FPSes, but rather there's other values like damage dealt, Enemies fought, HP Cured, Spells & number of times used, time spent in zone, etc information like that. This would make distributing points a hundred times easier.

Also, what version of EQDKP do you use? I've tried both FFXIDKP, standard EQDKP, and lately I've been messing with EQDKP plus to see if it has better things to offer.

Lately in our LS, we've been working on implementing a website similar to eBAY but cross-references with EQDKP values (points obtained, spent, items obtained, etc). This is what I mentioned earlier, that I'd rather the players deal with the drama between players themselves than players vs leaders.

Attendees can log onto the site, and bid on xyz item with their points, can see bidders list, etc just basically eBay with FFXI items.

Granted, I realize it's probably not going to be the best in terms of "fairness" system out there, the importance of it is that it takes less work out of our (read: leaders) hands.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I've always said that a DKP is only as good as the rules that govern it. Points value tell you nothing without the reason for why they are as they are.

- AFK / Ninja AFK: One of the other random issues during Dynamis, some people dont' care, however to others who put in their full 3 hours vs someone who only put in 1 hour of active playing, for the same amount of points, brings questions to the table.

People who AFK > 20 mins are d2'd.
We give "partial" points for attending at least one hour of dynamis for people who were not there at entry. The math used is (Full Value / 2 [round up] +0.25).

- Tardiness / Early dismissal - Face this, there's always going to be people logging on late because of work or whatever other issues, as well as the same reason for EST to bail out at the 12AM mark because they've got work the next day. How do we go about to dealing with this?

Early leavers, d/c'ers, etc all get Partial points as described above.

Pulling/Distributing AF or item calls/Logging attendance is a VERY tedious task in conjunction with parsing. Add in any dualboxed accounts, mules, etc and you've got yourself your secondary unpaid job going on.

You can take bids prior to entering Dynamis, or you can do them bid on drop. We generally do bid on drop because we're so full on most Dynamis drops that it doesn't matter. For Xarcabard, we still do bids prior to entry because we want to be there early, so we close bidding once the puller enters the zone.

Also, what version of EQDKP do you use? I've tried both FFXIDKP, standard EQDKP, and lately I've been messing with EQDKP plus to see if it has better things to offer.

EQDKP v1.3.2

[nekura]

In that first part he didn't mean ninja lotters, he meant people who got afk without saying anything.

[willriker]

am i missing something, because i had always thought that all LS's that use a point system to decide how drops were to be destributed were already using a DKP system. These LS's already have differant point values for events.

DKP and what i described are the same thing, right? Because i am failing to see any differance between how the fairer LS's handle this and what you decribed.

[Viserdes]

pretty much, but i just think the OP wanted our opinion and feedback on his system.